How can I negotiate for this job?

On September 28, 2020
How can I negotiate for this job?

A reader doesn’t know how much is too much to negotiate for, in the September 29, 2020 Ask The Headhunter Newsletter.

Question

negotiateI’m on the cusp of getting a job offer for a position in another city, doing accounting for a large law firm. It’s not a high-level professional job by any means, but it is something that could lead to it.

The supervisor of the department said to me “tell us what we need to do to get you here” or something to that effect. My question is, what do I ask for? I’ve never really negotiated anything except salary before, so I don’t know what is “too much” to ask for, as far as moving costs, or an advance for an apartment deposit. I know companies pull out all the stops for higher-up folks (management, lawyers, etc.), but I’m not sure what is common for the level I’m at now (mid $50K, I hope).

Would I be out of line to negotiate for help on a deposit for an apartment? This opportunity is very sudden and unfortunately I don’t have the funds saved up for getting a new apartment right away. However, I don’t want them laughing at me if I ask for too much. However, they do seem like they want me pretty badly. Any thoughts are appreciated!

Nick’s Reply

Congrats on impressing this firm. It seems what you’re trying to negotiate is salary, of course, but also your relocation, in a way that keeps you whole in a new city.

First, check moving.com, a useful site about relocation. Second, sit down and figure out the answer to the question you were asked: What do they need to do to get you? It seems clear you’re not looking for the moon, so I’m worried less that you’ll ask for too much and more that you won’t negotiate for what you really would like.

Before you negotiate

Break this into a short list for yourself. What are the realistic costs of:

  • Moving your stuff: moving company, truck rental, gas, storage, etc.
  • Travel including two round trips later if necessary
  • Getting a new apartment, including the deposit
  • Cost of living difference
  • Leaving your current job (lost bonus, vacation time, etc.)

I would not share this in detail with the employer unless they ask for a break-out (I don’t think they will). The point is to understand what you need and want. If your total number is reasonable, that may be all that’s required.

Make it easy for the employer

Here’s a little accounting secret about how to negotiate everything other than salary: Employers hate to grant recurring payments, like a higher salary, but they’re often willing to incur a one-time cost, like a signing bonus or a relocation expense. Many companies see that as reasonable. Be flexible and make it easy for the employer to satisfy your needs.

For example, consider whether you need a loan or a “signing bonus.” A loan payable via payroll deduction may be sufficient to get you moved. But I’m not saying you should not ask for an outright payment.

Be careful about any relocation agreement: Is there a claw-back, where if you quit in less than, say, a year, you’d have to give the money back? There are all kinds of ways to structure this.

Negotiate for more by asking for less

Smart negotiating keeps things simple and brief. You can actually ask for more by enumerating fewer line items. Most employers don’t care about the specifics. They just want to know “how much?”

For example, you need not break out the apartment deposit as a line item; just bundle it into the “moving cost” figure. You can also include the costs of a trip or two back home to wrap up personal matters that your sudden move might require. Do the travel on weekends to avoid eating into work time, or don’t do it at all — but it may be reasonable to request the price of those trips.

The key is to not get overly detailed unless they ask for details, and to provide just a few line items that make sense along with figures that aren’t off the wall.

Negotiate by making a commitment and discussing the terms

My suggestion is to negotiate through discussion, not by begging or demanding. It helps to make it clear that you’re ready to accept the job and start work if they can provide for your reasonable needs. So, start with a commitment and a thank-you for their flexibility.

“I want to accept this job with you, and I appreciate that you’re trying to make it attractive to me. Why don’t we discuss what would work for both of us?”

This tells them they’ve won you over and that it’s worth their while now to work out the details with you.

How to Say It

Here’s how you might discuss salary and the cost to “get you there” in one fell swoop. Please use this only as a guideline. Use only what you’re comfortable with and put it in your own words. Raise only as many details as you think you must.

“I appreciate your offer to do what’s necessary to help make this happen quickly and painlessly, and I’m open to discussing any of these items. The cost of living difference between your city and mine [check this on moving.com] is +10%, so I’d like to discuss a salary of between $55K and $60K. Since you asked, my actual move will cost $2,500. If you need me to start as soon as possible, I will need to make two weekend trips back in the first month to wrap up some personal matters, and economy airfares would total about $400. If I leave my job before they pay my bonus, which is due in two months, I’ll be leaving between $1,000-$1,500 of bonus behind. If you can do anything to compensate for even half of that I’d be very happy. To answer your question, to bring me on board quickly, in addition to salary I’d ask that you consider helping me cover these transition costs that come to a total of $3,500. I’m ready to start!”

Include only items that you think are justified. The items I’ve enumerated are just examples. Just make sure that, overall, you’re covering your costs, no matter which items you’re actually listing. For example, I’d bury the cost of the apartment deposit. I wouldn’t list it explicitly because it might sound odd that you’re an accountant but can’t swing the deposit on your own.

This firm has already indicated a commitment to hiring you, so treat them like family, and have a friendly, candid discussion about what they have to do to get you.

I hope this helps and I wish you the best.

What would you try to negotiate in this situation? How should this reader tally up and discuss requirements to make this move attractive? Have you ever tried to negotiate for too much… or not enough… and then regretted it?

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When to stop negotiating a job offer

On January 21, 2019

In the January 22, 2019 Ask The Headhunter Newsletter a reader asks whether negotiating a good job offer would be crazy.

Question

I’m a Senior Data Scientist and I just got a job offer, but the salary is about $1,000 lower than I expected. It’s a management position with less than a dozen staff reporting to me. They also offered a very generous signing bonus of about $50,000.

I think the salary offer is so low because in the interview I was bad at white boarding, and they told me that. But I explained that other skills like machine learning are far more important in this position, and they agreed that’s one of my key strengths. Obviously they agreed enough to want to hire me.

I understand they’re using the signing bonus to hedge their risk, but I still want to negotiate the salary. What do you think? In this situation, how crazy is this idea? Thanks!

Nick’s Reply

Harvard Business Review has called Data Scientist The Sexiest Job Of The 21st Century. Forbes reports it’s the best job in America. Does that make you worth a lot? Probably.

Don’t negotiate out of greed

Does that mean you should be greedy? Absolutely not. Don’t let your market value go to your head, and do not discount the judgment they made about your white boarding skills.

The value of data science depends on the kind of business in which its practiced — something I don’t know in your case. (Is it marketing? Is it financial services, or consulting?) Apparently the value of white boarding is higher than you think, or this employer would not have made a point about it.

Would you turn down the offer?

I think you should ask yourself this question: If you tried to negotiate and they were not to budge on the salary, would you still accept the job?

If you would, then I would not bother negotiating for a $1,000 increase. Given the size of the starting bonus, I’m guessing the salary offer is way over $100,000. That means the $1,000 is a bone of contention of less than 1%. This is what I refer to as One big negotiating no-no. In a moment, I’ll tell you why it’s risky to be greedy.

How to judge the offer

But let’s put the $1,000 aside for a moment, because it’s still important to consider two of the key issues in any job-offer negotiation.

  1. Is this a good place to work, and are they demonstrating that they really want you?
  2. Is the compensation enough for you?

First, what I really mean is, Do you really want this job? Do you want to work with these people? If you don’t, then don’t do it for any amount of money. If you do, then calculate the future value of the job and the cohort you’ll join. (See It’s the people, Stupid.) Then ask, What does $1,000 mean in this context?

Second, what I’m telling you is, If the salary offered is not going to make you happy, then negotiate the offer or reject it.

That’s how I’d judge the offer.

Focus on key decision criteria

Now let’s focus on your particular case. It doesn’t seem the offer is inadequate — not if the difference is less than 1%. While that $1,000 may mean a lot to you — and I don’t mean to disparage your concerns –, I also have to be blunt: I think you’re being greedy. It seems to me you’re discounting the quality of the company and the people you’ll be working with. I’d focus my energy on how good a working environment this would be for you. That’s one key.

I agree the signing bonus is generous. Of course they’re hedging their bet — but it still indicates how much they want you. You’re wise to consider that a signing bonus is a one-time payment that will not affect future raises, your 401(k) basis, or other salary-based perks. But you’d have to work 50 years at a $1,000 higher salary to match that one-time bonus. And as my accountant would point out, if you invest that lump sum for the next 50 years, you’re effectively getting a raise every year on it. So the compensation package is another key — and it sounds quite good or you would be looking for far more than $1,000.

Risks of negotiating

If you would not accept the salary unless it’s $1,000 higher, then by all means negotiate and be ready to reject the total offer. It’s not my place to tell you what this job is worth.

Now here’s the risk I referred to: If you press for an extra $1,000, I would not be surprised if this employer rescinded the offer altogether. (Other risks include a delayed offer and unexpected competitors surfacing.)

If the hiring manager asked my advice, here’s what I’d say: After you showed this candidate good faith worth $50,000, the candidate is demonstrating a preoccupation with $1,000. That’s not good faith on the candidate’s part!

I usually side with candidates who believe they’re worth more money. But in this case $1,000 doesn’t constitute a meaningful negotiation. It’s chump change. I don’t think it’s worth jeopardizing this offer. If you invest that signing bonus at 2%, you’ll get the grand without negotiating anything.

Know when to stop

Knowing how to negotiate effectively includes knowing when to stop. So let’s return to the key question: If they were not to budge on the salary after negotiations, would you still accept the job?

If no, then negotiate. (Here are some tips to help you: Negotiate a better job offer by saying YES.)

If yes, then I think risking the job for a grand is indeed crazy. If other key aspects of the job are satisfactory and you want it, thank them for their offer and generous signing bonus, smile, and tell them you plan to demonstrate so much value to their business that next year they’ll want to give you a substantial raise.

I wish you the best.

How much more is worth negotiating for? Where do you draw the line? What’s your biggest negotiating win? Did you ever negotiate yourself right out of a job offer?

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13 lies employers tell about job offers

On October 29, 2018

In the October 30, 2018 Ask The Headhunter Newsletter a reader recounts her experience with a small-business owner and how he plays games with job offers.

Question

job offersI just came across some of your articles when trying to research my job offer being rescinded (Behind the scenes of a rescinded job offer, Job offer rescinded after I quit my job). A lot of what you wrote resonated with me and made me feel much better about my experience today.

I interviewed for a high level position at a smaller company, so I was talking to the owner directly. Here are the key facts about the compensation:

  1. The offer was at the bottom of the salary range discussed during my interview process.
  2. The owner said I could make it up with a large bonus, but that they didn’t have a structure for how bonuses worked. If the company was doing well I’d get all or part of the bonus, but it was at his discretion.
  3. I asked if he was flexible on the base pay at all, and I brought up the industry average (which was a lot higher) and my experience level and what I could bring to the table.
  4. He first said he was flexible on the base pay and even said that what he was paying me didn’t matter to him, but he didn’t actually budge and said this was a good offer he was making me.
  5. He said I needed to trust that I would be getting the bonus and at the end of the day my pay would be much higher.


I said I was still very interested and excited about the role. I explained that I would really like to review the details of the whole package, including the benefits, in case I had any questions. It’s a small company and there were some non-standard things they were doing with benefits, like providing some kind of stipend for your cell phone and other things, but no 401(k).

Here’s how that discussion went:

  1. I asked if he could send the complete offer in writing so that I go over all of it to make sure I understood everything, and then confirm my positive response.
  2. He asked how long I needed to review it.
  3. I asked if I could get it to him before Friday (this was on a Tuesday).
  4. He sounded disappointed. He said that wasn’t the response he was expecting but he would still send over the offer in writing.
  5. He said he had other candidates that he needed to inform who weren’t getting the job and it was not fair to them to make them wait 2-3 days until he got a confirmation from me.
  6. I asked him if he had a timeline in mind that would work better for him, so he said Thursday morning.
  7. I said okay.


That evening, I got an e-mail saying he was rescinding the offer. He said he wanted someone who was so excited about joining his company that they are prepared and anxious to accept the offer when it’s made verbally.

He said that he felt I lacked passion for his company and that he didn’t want anyone there who was not passionate about his brand.

I wrote him back a professional response thanking him for everything.

I felt very validated when I found your articles because you explain that employers often make verbal offers because they are merely fishing for a reaction, not actually making a bona fide offer. That’s exactly what this was.

The job is an analytical one, so I was surprised that they would expect an instant, seat-of-the-pants response when they were looking for a detail-oriented, analytical person!

When I told my friends what happened, they fell into two camps. All my friends who work at various levels in corporate environments (including HR) thought I did nothing wrong. Two of my friends who both own small companies agreed with the owner and said they, too, would have rescinded the offer because they felt it was insulting to not immediately accept the verbal offer. They said that asking for the offer in writing showed I lacked trust. This of course goes against everything I know and believe.

I see what happened as a red flag for how I may be treated in the future. I’m at a bad job now but I don’t want to go to another bad job. I’m interested in this divide between large companies and small business owners, and I thought you would be, too.

Are the negotiating rules really different for small companies versus larger ones? Or are the small business owners I’ve described just outliers? Thanks for your comments.

Nick’s Reply

I think you dodged a bullet. Your story is important because it highlights a raft of games employers play with job offers.

Are these problems particular to small companies? While I can’t offer data to support this, my experience suggests small business owners are far more likely to play these games than managers in larger companies. I think business owners tend to be far more autocratic than their peers in companies that have many owners or investors.

Strike One

Let’s look at the facts you presented above — #6 through #9. This business owner decided to extend an offer after you satisfactorily negotiated a more-than-reasonable decision deadline. He made a verbal agreement with you about the deadline. Then he reneged on what he agreed to.

That’s strike one against him. It tells us he can’t be trusted.

Strike Two

You prudently asked for details of the offer in writing. He hedged, then agreed. Then he reneged and never provided anything in writing. I think he never had any intention of giving you a written offer.

Get it in writing.

Benefits: The employer trick that lowers your job offer.

This is different from merely agreeing to a decision timeline. This is about reneging on putting terms in writing. Do you think he does business deals on a simple handshake, without anything in writing? That’s a rhetorical question but, of course, he may in fact do deals with nothing in writing.

Either way, that’s strike two.

Strike Three

After tactful questions from you about the salary and bonus structure (#1 – #5), he refused to commit to anything concrete. He wants you to trust him, but he doesn’t trust you. He uses a double standard.

The old rule about “trust but verify” is why we put agreements in writing. I’ll repeat: This guy had no intention of putting anything in writing. “Trust me” means “No.”

Strike three.

Strike Four

The egregious management error this employer committed was to judge you unworthy because you failed to instantly display passion and a sucker’s excitement for an incomplete, dishonest job offer. He lost a potentially great hire.

If a strike four could be counted, that’s it.

If he wants to hire a foolish employee, he’s talking to the wrong person. If he’s looking for a thoughtless worker whose decision-making process is marked by a lack of prudence and due diligence, he should absolutely move on to another candidate he can lie to and hire on the spot.

The lessons from this game

It’s a good sign when an employer engages in a negotiation with a job applicant on compensation, on the terms of the job, and even on when a decision is due. It suggests you’ll be working for a boss who values your input and your circumspection, and who wants to make working together a win-win experience.

It’s a bad sign when an employer plays games.

You’ve taken the trouble to share your experience in very useful detail, revealing the many games employers play with job offers. This guy is bold enough to play them all at once — then to blame you for catching him.

Lies employers tell you about job offers

These are some of the lies employers tell, presented as a sort of “dictionary.” Here’s what unworthy employers will do in the hiring process:

  1. Salary Range. Establish a salary range to set ground rules for proceeding with interviews, then they pretend the low end is going to impress you.
  2. Good Offer. Tell you it’s a good offer without showing you exactly what the offer is.
  3. Competitive. Refer to “competitive” pay and benefits but never to precise sums or specific benefits.
  4. Bonus Structure. Refer to contingent forms of pay — like bonuses and commissions — but do not define objective, measurable, agreed-upon criteria that you must meet to earn those bonuses.
  5. Flexible. Say they are flexible on pay, but make no explicit compromises or concessions about pay.
  6. Industry Standard. Talk about industry-standard or average pay, but don’t define what that is or cite the sources of those numbers.
  7. Opportunity. Suggest that what this deal is really all about is a great opportunity for you, and that pay isn’t really the issue to them, when it clearly is because they won’t negotiate pay with you candidly.
  8. Trust. Tell you to trust them to pay you fairly, but will not define the compensation deal objectively in writing — or trust you to review their offer.
  9. Terms. Want you to agree to accept a job offer immediately based only on a few points — and “don’t worry about the rest of the details,” or what lawyers refer to as “terms.”
  10. Job Offer. Want you to commit to a deal verbally, while they balk about putting it in writing with their signature on it.
  11. Decision. Agree to give you two days to review a written offer they haven’t given you yet, then renege because you insulted them by not deciding instantly.
  12. Qualified. Judge how qualified you are for the job by whether you’re “excited” and “passionate” enough to accept on the spot.
  13. Commitment. Negotiate terms and make commitments then violate them.

These are all lies unworthy employers tell job applicants they try to take advantage of. The words in the little “dictionary” above actually mean something to good employers — and you’ll see that instantly in a good employer’s behavior.

Never work with jerks

You should never go to work for employers who play these job-offer games. You’d regret it because they’d behave the same way day-to-day. They’re jerks.

For more about how to negotiate the best compensation package, see:

Fearless Job Hunting, Book 7: Win The Salary Games (long before you negotiate an offer)

Fearless Job Hunting, Book 9: Be The Master of Job Offers

I think you’ve identified at least three people you should never work with — including your friends who said you insulted the employer and displayed a lack of trust. Don’t doubt your judgement – it has certainly served you well here.

Whether you’re talking to a big or small company, the approach and questions you relied on here will tell you all you need to know about an employer.

From the details you shared, I see a prudent, honest, forthright, responsible professional who treats others the way she wishes to be treated. I see no fault in anything you said or did during the hiring process. In fact, I compliment you for doing everything right – it all combined to help you dodge a bullet.

On to the next! Find a company that deserves a good hire.

My only suggestion is to carefully check a company’s and manager’s references before you invest your time interviewing there. You might find this useful: 5 rules to test for the best job opportunities.

What lies have you heard employers tell job applicants? What would you add to the dictionary above? What else should job seekers look out for in the throes of getting a job offer? What details do you insist on having in a written job offer?

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Should I return my bonus if I quit my job?

On August 27, 2018

In the August 28, 2018 Ask The Headhunter Newsletter a reader feels pangs of guilt about keeping a bonus.

Question

bonusWhen I was given my performance review they told me I was at the top end of my salary grade. Instead of a raise, I was given a 3% bonus that came on my last paycheck. Depending on the outcome of a recent job interview at another company, I might be resigning in a few days.

I feel guilty keeping a bonus that I got just before I quit! Had it been a raise, it would have been spaced out over a year. Should I offer to return the bonus when and if I tender my resignation?

The new job is in a field I have wanted to return to (consulting). I’m not counting any chickens before they hatch, but it looks good and the job offer could be as much as a $20,000 increase in my salary. I could stay here, but it would be foolish to pass up an opportunity to return to a field I love with such a dramatic pay increase and career advancement.

Should I return the bonus?

Nick’s Reply

You should use your own judgment, but based on what you’ve said, I see no reason to return a performance bonus. Here’s why:

  • A salary increase is prospective – it pays for future performance.
  • A bonus payment is retrospective – it’s a reward for past performance. That’s why it comes as a lump sum and is not recoverable by the employer, unless they made you sign something to the contrary.

It’ll be interesting to see if they ask you to return it. I’m assuming you didn’t sign any kind of claw-back agreement that would empower the company to take the money back — or you would have said so. As long as that’s accurate…

You earned the bonus

I would not return it. Of course, your employer may be upset about that, but that’s life and that’s business. Your employer chose to make it a bonus, not you. If they actually intended the bonus as some kind of compensation for your future work — or as an incentive to stay in your job — then they should have defined it that way and spread the payments over the next year. But it seems clear you earned the bonus for performance you already delivered.

The only other issue is, are you worried about burning the bridge? If you are, then act accordingly. But, in my opinion, if they expect the bonus returned, they’re being disingenuous. Keep in mind, these are people who don’t believe you deserve a raise. They’re the ones burning the bridge to you.

I’d keep the money without a guilty conscience and move on. (For more about raises, see They promised a raise but won’t deliver.)

Be very careful

Congratulations on the new opportunity. I hope you get the offer you expect. But please keep one very important thing in mind: You don’t have the new offer yet.

Do not take any action on your old job until you’re absolutely sure the new job is locked down. I regularly see employers rescind job offers right up to the start date. (See Job offer rescinded after I quit my old job.) Be very, very careful.

Use your best judgment. If you’re truly excited about the new opportunity, take it and don’t look back. And keep that bonus. I wish you the best.

Should this reader return the bonus? Would you? What other factors might play into your decision? What does it mean when an employer declines to give you a raise but gives you a bonus instead? (Hint: Does a bonus affect your benefits the same way a salary raise does?)

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