Archive for the Q&A Category

Question

I found a position listing with Company A, where I interviewed a couple of years ago. Back then, it was a contract job, but the interview with the hiring manager went very well. Then the job was cancelled due to funding constraints. Too bad, because I really hit it off with the manager. So I moved on to Company B where I accepted an offer for a permanent position.

Fast forward two years. Company A again has a position, but it’s permanent this time. Great, I think, so I contacted Ms. Hiring Manager. She remembered me and said she would be very glad to talk with me again, as I definitely have the skills they are looking for. So far so good, right? She says she will have someone call me to set up a time for an in-person interview.

Company A’s HR person called in the middle of the work day. Here’s how it went:

“Hi, this is [Ms. HR] from Company A. Is this a good time?”

“Uh, sure,” I say as I leap from my desk to go somewhere I can talk to her, expecting a quick conversation to make an appointment with Ms. Hiring Manager.

Ms. HR: “I want to make an appointment for you to come in and talk with Ms. Hiring Manager.”

“Great,” I say, “When would be a good time be for Ms. Hiring Manager and me to meet?”

Ms. HR says, “Well, first I need to be sure you are qualified for the position.”

Me: “Huh? I already spoke with Ms. Hiring Manager yesterday about the position, and she said you would call and make an appointment for us.”

Ms. HR  “Well, I don’t want to waste Ms. Hiring Manager’s time.”

(Me, silently, “Wha…? Okaayyy.”)

Ms. HR: “I see you applied for a contract position with us before.”

Me: “Yes, I did. That’s why I contacted Ms. Hiring Manager when I saw that a permanent position was open in her department.”

Ms. HR <snarky tone>: “Well, are you ready to make a commitment to a permanent position since you applied for a contract position last time? We want someone who will stay with us and make a commitment!”

Me: “Umm, wasn’t the position I was talking with Ms. Hiring Manager a permanent position?”

Ms. HR: “Yes, but you have had a lot of contract positions.”

Me: “My last three jobs have been permanent positions. As for the contracts, you do know what’s been going on in the IT field and the economy the last few years, right? I took the job that was available, and sometimes it was a contract.”

Ms. HR (interrupting and in a loud voice): “WE NEED TO BE SURE YOU ARE READY TO MAKE A COMMITMENT TO A JOB.”

Me: “I applied for a permanent position, so that is what I am looking for.”

Ms. HR, changing direction: “What salary do you expect for this job?”

Me: “I don’t generally discuss salary until I have a better feel for the job responsibilities and benefits.”

Ms. HR: “I need to know what you want so you are not wasting Ms. Hiring Manager’s time. We can’t bring you in here if you want TOO MUCH MONEY!”

Me: “I’d rather discuss that with the hiring manager.”

(Several back and forths about what I want, and the reasons I must tell her, that she delivers in an increasingly nasty tone of voice.)

Ms. HR (changing tactics again): “Okay, so what are you making now?”

Me: “My compensation is confidential. I don’t disclose it when I’m negotiating for a new job because it gives an employer an unfair advantage.”

Ms. HR: “In all my years in HR I have NEVER heard anyone say that! (Raises voice, in a nasty tone.) Never, never! I’ve never heard of that!”

Finally, I realize she has just sprung a phone interview on me with no warning, under the guise of scheduling a meeting, and was verbally abusing me. Whoa!?

Me: “Your company is not a good fit for me. Thank you for your time. Goodbye!”

Generally speaking I was a good candidate for the job, but the company is not a good candidate for me, if this is an indication of the culture. I really have to wonder if Ms. Hiring Manager is aware that Ms. HR is driving away the very candidates the manager wants to interview, instead of attempting to recruit them. Or does the company only want to hire people whose self-worth and self-esteem are so low that they would put up with this type of behavior?

What do I say? I really do want to let someone know. Honestly, I was so upset by the whole thing I couldn’t address it right away, because my response would have been unprintable.

So, what do I say to Ms. Hiring Manager, if anything?

Nick’s Reply

What’s glaringly missing from that HR “interview” is any discussion about your qualifications, which she emphasized from the start was the purpose of her unscheduled phone call. That tells us everything we need to know.

I’m printing your entire dialogue to demonstrate just how disconcerting and ridiculous an “HR screening phoner” can be. This is very common among employers that permit HR to run the show. It can be an enormous PR disaster in the professional communities from which a company needs to recruit.

I’d call Ms. Hiring Manager, since you already know one another, and since she directed Ms. HR to schedule a meeting. And, since you’ve already made your decision not to pursue a job there (I think this is the right call), here’s how to say it to the hiring manager who invited you in, only to let a mad dog chase you away.

How to Say It

“I enjoyed talking with you once again last week and I was looking forward to meeting to discuss the job you have open. I’m flattered that you remembered me from our interview two years ago! Unfortunately, the call I received from your HR department was very disturbing. I’m sorry to tell you this, but I believe it’s important to be frank. As a result of that call, I’m not sure I’d ever consider a position with your company. Is your board of directors aware of how your HR staff portrays your company, and how they treat job applicants?”

She will ask you what you’re talking about. Don’t get into it. Just send her the transcript you sent me, and add a note.

How to Say It

“I hope we get to meet again under better circumstances, perhaps at another company — because I’m impressed with the way you present yourself. I did not produce this transcript for you. I wrote it up for a friend. But I think you will see what I mean when you read it. I wish you the best, and I’d always be glad to talk with you in the future. I don’t consider this experience any reflection of you. Kind regards…”

The point is to rattle HR’s cage and make sure the manager is aware of a serious recruiting and public relations problem. You did the right thing shutting down Ms. HR. She was loaded for bear, and anything that moves looks like a bear to her. But let’s not forget about Ms. Hiring Manager. She needs to stay on top of her HR department or this kind of experience will continue to cost good candidates and undermine her own success.

Just ask yourself, how would the board of directors respond if they were to see this crank in action, representing her company to its professional community?

Sheesh!

Thanks for sharing! On to the next, hopefully a better one! If you hear anything back from the hiring manager, I’d love to know. Please use your judgment with my suggested How to Say It comments to the manager. Shape and change the message and words so they suit your objectives.

In your experience, how common is such HR behavior when employers are trying to recruit good hires? If you’re a hiring manager, have you seen such missteps from HR? How much of the time does this happen? Should this job seeker attempt to get an interview anyway? How should she say it to the hiring manager? If you work in HR, please tell us what gives?

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Question

I am not surprised that a key employee quit on me. I did all I could do to retain him. I can’t fault him for taking a new job since we recently had some layoffs. I even told him I’d welcome him back if he ever wants to come back. I also told him, “If they pull the job offer letter or you change your mind, please let me know right away so I can stop the resignation process. If you get there and find out it’s just not the right job, please let me know and I will make every effort to hire you back.” I left the door open.

The offer is a higher raise than our company can give on its own, but we can often make a counteroffer that large. To do that my company requires that the letter of offer be presented to us for documentation. However, the new company required him to come in person to read the offer letter but would not let him take the offer letter with him until he signed it.

This for me is a giant red flag. Every job offer I have had is such that they let me have the letter of offer, usually by e-mail.

Bottom line: In most U.S. states employment is strictly “at will” so I have no problem with somebody resigning, backing out on an offer they accepted, or walking out. Companies don’t hesitate to let people go without notice. So what do you think about a company that won’t let you take the job offer letter with you?

Nick’s Reply

It seems like a small thing, but it’s a big deal. I think it’s a bad policy.

I’ve known employers that require a decision on the spot. Some employers will make only a verbal (or oral) offer but will not produce a written, signed offer until the candidate accepts orally. While I’ve also had client companies make offers on the spot, at the end of only one interview, it’s very rare.

Get the job offer letter

I advise against accepting a job offer on the spot, mainly because it’s too easy to make a poor decision without time to think it through — especially if you’re considering other opportunities.

I also insist a job offer letter must be delivered in writing, signed by a company official — because otherwise the commitment cannot be relied upon. And if an employer refuses to let you take the offer letter to forestall competition, that may mean they’re not competitive in other ways — so why would you want to work with them?

It’s not real if it isn’t in writing

I’ll share an analogy. We recently wanted to replace a lot of carpeting in our house. We belong to Costco so we decided to try them (that is, their carpeting contractor). The guy came over with loads of samples, measured every room, spent quite a while working up a detailed quote — well over an hour total. Nice guy. Showed us the quote and asked us to sign it as a legal work order. We’d never spend that much money without sleeping on it. He pressed us gently but realized we needed a day to consider.

He wrote the total number on a piece of paper and handed it to us. He would not leave the itemized quote.

We said goodbye and didn’t return any of his many calls because he wasted our time. We shopped the job and hired a contractor who was more confident and didn’t play games. It turned out to be the right choice.

Job offer letter and counter-offer

I think playing games with a work quote or a job offer letter is a stupid way to do business. If I were your key employee I would have told that company, “I don’t consider your offer bona fide if I can’t take it with me and think about it. It’s troubling that you seem not to have faith in your job offer. You should decide what you want to do next.”

I know very well that people try to leverage offers to get counter-offers. In fact, I’ve written extensively about why under most circumstances a person should not do that. It has nothing to do with ethics. It’s about knowing what you want.

Nonetheless, if I were this guy, I’d accept the offer. I assume at that point they’d let him have the written version. (If not, go back two paragraphs.) Assuming there is no other compelling reason to change employers, I’d bring the offer letter to you and if you matched or bettered it (in writing, of course!), then I’d rescind my acceptance and stay with you.

(For anyone that believes changing their mind after accepting a job offer is unethical, please refer to Should I renege because I got a better job offer?)

What would you do if an employer wouldn’t let you take a written job offer with you? Is a job offer real if it’s not in writing and actually given to you? How else might the employee in this episode deal with the situation?

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Question

My name is Fxxxx Cxxxx and I am beginning a national job search. I found your information and I want to introduce myself to you. My background is that I have spent 15 years in business with five being in human resources and 10 being in technical sales and general management. I have a Masters degree from Michigan State, international experience in both Asia and Europe, detailed technical sales experience in the ultra-competitive xxxx market, “Fortune 5” experience, change leadership knowledge and new business startup entrepreneurship.

I am willing to relocate at my own expense. I am currently employed. I am seeking to get out of the xxxx business. I believe that there is a massive over-capacity in the market and it will not go away any time soon. I have a broad set of skills all anchored around my ability to influence customers to buy more and employees to contribute more. If you have any questions or would like more information please feel free to contact me at xxx xxx-xxxx. Thanks. Fxxxx Cxxxx

Nick’s Reply

I receive so many “introduction” e-mails just like this one. I believe what you are doing is a waste of time and insulting to employers. (I’m not insulted that you sent it to me, but I’m troubled for your sake.) Think about it. You’re saying to someone you don’t know and who doesn’t know you, “Here are my credentials. Now, you go figure out what to do with me.”

Managers don’t do that. As a headhunter, I don’t, either.

What good am I to you?

You don’t even say what you want to do. Again, you’re asking people you don’t know to figure it out for you. What’s truly stunning is that you have worked in human resources. You should know better.

You tout your sales expertise, but imagine that a sales manager receives the boilerplate e-mail you sent me. What your e-mail really says is, “I sell by sending out canned information to people I don’t know.” What sales manager wants a sales person who sells like that?

Yes, that’s unbridled sarcasm and it’s directed at you. Better that you hear it from me than from some manager who deletes your e-mail because you’re asking them to figure out what you’d be good for.

Is that this what job hunting has come to?

I know the economy is frighteningly uncertain. Companies are scattering their employees to the wind. Jobs are getting hard to find. Mass mailing resumes to companies you don’t know is bad enough. But if sending around random “job hunting” e-mails is a new trend, then I’m putting more filters on my Outlook.

Please, folks. Don’t demean yourselves. Dumbing down your job-hunting efforts will just make you look dumb. The only way you will inspire a manager to call you is if you identify a problem or challenge they are facing, and then suggest how you’re going to tackle it and make the business more successful. If that sounds like consultative selling, it is.

Tell them what to do with you

Consultative selling is a lot of work. But if you’re not willing to do it, why should anyone want to hire you? “Hey, I’d like you to give me a job, but don’t expect me to even know what your business is. Just bring me in for an interview.”

Managers today are very busy, sometimes frantic, trying to save their companies, their jobs, their employees and their own jobs. Why should any manager spend  two seconds reading an e-mail that reveals no interest in, or understanding of, the manager’s business?

Try this exercise: How would you convince a manager — who has no job openings — to create a new job just for you? This is a useful exercise because it requires you to discuss not your credentials, but the employer’s business. How could you apply specific skills to the business so that it would be foolish for the manager not to create new job and hire you?

Take careful aim

For your own good, pursue the jobs that you can add value to. Only you can figure out what they are. But your e-mail suggests one thing: You are hunting for a job aimlessly because you don’t know why a manager needs you. You must figure that out and explain it convincingly.

If you want a job, show an employer that its business matters to you. Entice the manager by showing how you would make the business measurably better. Because that’s how your competition gets hired.

Do you send a canned introduction to employers and wait for a response?

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Question

I am currently involved in two interviews. One is a bit stalled and the other is moving too fast. That is, one employer is moving about a week or two ahead of the other. Both have promise but I would like to slow down the faster-track interview tactfully to provide me with time to assess the other job properly. Any suggestions on how to manage the time line?

Nick’s Reply

Nice work — two deals cooking at once in today’s economy! I’d try the simple approach first. I’m sure your work schedule is very busy. Tactfully explain to the faster company that you are very interested in the opportunity and excited about continuing your discussions. Then beg off their schedule a bit.

How to Say It

“I take my work responsibilities seriously, and I can’t leave my employer in a tight spot during this very busy time. But I look forward to my next meeting with you. Could we schedule our next meeting the week of…? I guess I’m telling you that if you hire me, my job would always come first.”

(That last part might sound a bit smug! Tweak it to suit you!)

You could also explain that you are wrapping up an important project and that you could not start until such-and-such a date even if they decided to hire you and you accepted the job. This slows things down a bit more.

More interviews

Finally, if the company wraps this up quickly and makes an offer, you can put the deal on pause another way. Thank them enthusiastically and, if the money is to your satisfaction, say that. Express your interest, then ask to meet with a couple of other people in the company before you make a decision. I think this is usually the best approach.

For example, if the job is in sales, ask to meet with the operations manager and the finance manager. Explain that before accepting a job, you always check out the departments peripheral but close to sales before you make a commitment.

How to Say It

“I’d like to see how those teams affect and are affected by the sales operation, and I’d like to learn what the company’s other strengths are.”

This shows a breadth of thinking that should impress any smart manager.

Judge the risks

Of course, you could instead try to speed up the slow poke, but I’ve rarely seen that work. Requesting a slight delay is asking for a courtesy; trying to speed things up is usually viewed as presumptuous.

There is risk in all these tactics, of course. The company may be in a rush, or the manager may be put off by your attempt to control the schedule — but you can’t do anything about that. The risk is that they end your interviews. You must decide whether this approach is worth the level of control it may give you.

However, remember that if you get the postponements you ask for, it’s your responsibility to stick to the schedule you are granted. At some point, you will have to make a decision and a choice, and you may never get the offers nicely lined up anyway.

Buying time might be important, but pausing to gather important information before you make a decision may turn out to be even more important. After you explore those peripheral departments you may not like what you learn, and that may lead you to Turn down that job offer.

What can you do when faced with the quandary of staggered hiring processes? Has this happened to you? Is it possible to slow down your interviews?

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Introduction

There are lots of smart, solid HR folks who work hard to maintain high standards in recruiting and hiring. They are progressive and focused on making their companies successful. For example, they do not demand a job candidate’s earnings history prior to a salary negotiation. But the bureaucrats in HR are killing HR’s credibility — and that of the companies they work for. The submission below from an HR manager certainly does not indict all HR workers. Nonetheless it reveals a serious, pernicious problem in the field.

An HR manager’s head explodes

Dear Nick,

I have read your column frequently and am so dismayed that someone pays you to hand out this kind of information — in this instance with potential harm to a lesser-skilled candidate in need of a job.

It’s safe for you as a critic to have an opinion about why an employer may or may not have justification for requiring salary history — but if you’re giving out advice, tell the candidate how to handle the tricky situation — not how wrong the recruiter is — because he/she really isn’t.

Also, legal, illegal, schmillegal, what happens behind the closed doors of the recruiter’s office stays there and if a requirement on the application is salary history and you leave it off — there will be no interview for you.

I’ve been a VP of HR, a recruiter, a labor negotiator and a candidate, so I know from which I speak.

A good and thorough recruiter knows very well that if you employ a candidate at a substantially lesser salary than they earned, especially in a similar position, you are very likely wasting the company’s money and your time because the candidate is looking for a quick fix to unemployment while applying for higher paying jobs while they work for you. That is, of course, unless you’ve mapped out a rapid route for them to increase responsibilities and pay to a level they were at in the past. Someone else has already set the money standard that tells the candidate what they are worth — you’re merely a stop-gap and you have every right to know that before you hire them. Nice-looking people have been known to lie through their teeth to maintain their standard of living — like being able to afford food.

Some employers want the information because they believe that if you made $30,000 in your last job for a like position which for them starts at $50,000, they’d be overpaying and want the opportunity to buy you for $35,000 to start. The HR person who does that gets many kudos for their shopping moxie from their boss and gets to keep their job and go on many more shopping trips.

Your best advice to a candidate caught in the no-win situation of having the hiring manager ask bluntly, “What is your present salary?” or the all-too-intimidating, “What will it take to get you to come to work for us?” — you could suggest a response like this one that also opens the door for a very tricky question you were afraid to ask. The candidate should say to the employer:

“What’s more important is the value of the position to you. This is a great company so I’m sure you have a fair salary range already established for the job and as long as I fit into that range accounting for my experience, I will be happy. By the way, what is the range you’ve assigned to it?”

The employer probably won’t tell you the range, but will see you as confident, diplomatic, smart and perhaps his future right-hand.

I wish you well, Nick.

Nick’s Reply

Thanks for all the evidence anyone needs to justify withholding their salary information. I have no response to you. But I’d like to offer some comments to job hunters.

There is no real salary negotiation if you comply

Ever see an HR manager’s head explode, spewing the bile that drives their hiring process?

1. This is a clear example of a personnel jockey who would tell you there’s no interview if you withhold your salary history. This saves you the agony of working for a company that wants to take advantage of you during salary negotiation.

2. “…legal, illegal, schmillegal, what happens behind the closed doors of the recruiter’s office stays there…” This is the heart of the matter. It’s a tacit admission that in some companies the law is locked out of the hiring process when the abuse begins.

“…if a requirement on the application is salary history and you leave it off — there will be no interview for you.” Show me the law that says a job applicant is required to divulge their private salary history. By implying that behind those doors HR is the law, this personnel jockey reveals no qualms about threatening job candidates. This personnel jockey has the effrontery to brag that extorting salary information from a job applicant is intended to interfere with a fair and  honest salary negotiation.

We have no idea what you’re worth, but this is how we pay less

3. Not all HR folks depend on your salary history to judge you. But some do.

“Someone else has already set the money standard that tells the candidate what they are worth…” Consider the abject failure of the HR person who trusts some other company’s judgment of you as it’s reflected in the salary it paid you. If I were the chairman of the board employing that personnel representative, she’d be fired. Consider what she’s doing. If our company is recruiting someone from a competitor, she’s judging that candidate based on our competitor’s assessment. If we can’t judge for ourselves, where is our competitive edge? (And what if our competitor made a mistake?)

4. The real corruption of HR practices is revealed here: “…and you [HR] have every right to know [the applicant’s previous salary] before you hire them.” No, HR does not have that right. HR may have the right to show you the door if you don’t comply, but HR does not have the right to your private information. When candidates realize they can walk away from an unreasonable interviewer, they often do. Not all candidates are so bold or fearless, but the choice is theirs to make.

5. The arrogance of some in HR becomes clear, too. “Nice looking people… lie through their teeth… to afford food…” That’s a great way to characterize the next candidate who walks in. It’s emblematic of the dismissive attitude that candidates face when they apply for a job and when they negotiate a job offer. But judging from comments here on Ask The Headhunter, many job hunters are walking away from such nonsense.

Salary negotiation: We’ll let your last employer decide

6. So is this merely an HR problem? I think not. It’s a problem in the board room. “The HR person who does that gets many kudos for their shopping moxie from their boss…” for paying a sucker less than the job is worth just because the last employer did the same. I know that many HR professionals will be appalled by the statements this particular HR person makes. But I believe this practice is prevalent enough that it’s a problem.

But the capper is right here:

7. The job candidate is supposed to say, “This is a great company so I’m sure you have a fair salary range already established for the job…” Based on everything this crank has already told us, we know that the “fair salary range” is irrelevant. What matters is the applicant’s previous salary. Even if the salary for the job is $50K, our HR friend is going to score points with her boss by suckering the candidate. The offer will be for $35K because the candidate was making only $30K. Welcome to the workhouse.

See danger for what it is

Does anyone wonder why my readers don’t trust employers with their salary history? “The hiring manager probably won’t tell you the range, but will see you as…” …a sucker to be underpaid? All I see in this HR person’s statements is danger for the job hunter.

This kind of HR policy is why I publish Ask The Headhunter. While salary history can be discussed when and if an applicant feels comfortable doing it (it’s not inadvisable in every circumstance), something big is wrong when a Goliath of a company intimidates the little job applicant and threatens that David will never see a job if David doesn’t surrender his private information. It almost doesn’t matter that many HR operations don’t behave this way. Enough do that the problem is endemic: People generally believe they have no choice when the demand is made, and that they will be ejected if they refuse even politely.

The HR profession has some housecleaning to do. I urge those practitioners with integrity to remove the salary history question from job applications and to stop defending this practice on any level.

It’s time for responsible employers to rid themselves of representatives who abuse their roles and threaten not only the privacy of job applicants but the reputations of their companies. It’s time for HR to judge candidates on their abilities, not on their salary, and to stop limiting job offers because “The HR person who does that gets many kudos for their shopping moxie from their boss.”

Moxie indeed. What executive-level manager would brag about giving job applicants the shaft and then suggest that I should teach them to take it?

Related articles:

Can I change careers without a salary cut?

We need to know your salary because —

Keep Your Salary Under Wraps

Does your company’s HR team require a candidate’s salary history before doing an interview? Why? Do you surrender your salary information when an employer asks for it? If you decline, what do you say?

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Question

I had a behavioral interview with a company that I was dying to work for. If you’ve never had one, they can be brutal. They ask questions like:

• Describe a situation in which you were able to use persuasion to successfully convince someone to see things your way.
• Describe a time when you were faced with a stressful situation that demonstrated your coping skills.
• Give me a specific example of a time when you used good judgment and logic in solving a problem.

The Human Resources (HR) woman who interviewed me was an iceberg. She stuck to the script and would not budge from it. So what’s the best way to handle heavily-scripted behavioral interviews?

Nick’s Reply

In my opinion the behavioral interview is just more HR hocus-pocus. Witness your own experience. The interviewer isn’t interested in you, but in the cleverness of your answers. Behavioral interviews are yet another excuse for not knowing how to directly assess whether a job candidate can do the job.

The U.S. Chamber of Commerce blithely recommends behavioral interviews: “The goal is to assess a candidate’s potential for future success based on their past behavior.”

Say what?

“Past Performance is Not Indicative of Future Results”

YieldStreet shames every HR executive that defends behavioral interviews:

“The above regulatory risk warning appears on nearly all investment materials, including prospects about mutual funds, equity investments, and even alternative investments. It is so ubiquitous that even those with only a passing interest in investing are familiar with it. In fact, the phrase also applies to various fields, including finance, sports, and business in general.” [emphasis added]

I’d love for an HR expert to refute that and swear behavioral interviews are different.

HR does not understand engineering, R&D, marketing, or any other function in a company, above a cursory level. No one outside a functional area is really suited to assess a candidate’s ability to do the work. The cleverness of candidates’ answers to canned questions — “behavioral” or otherwise — is not what we’re looking for! How they do the job is. And interviewers who devote their time to thinking up clever ways to indirectly assess ability are wasting a company’s money. The behavioral interview should be a direct assessment of ability to do the work.

Where’s the behavior in a behavioral interview?

The great contradiction, lost on CEOs, stockholders, and others who foot the recruiting bill is that the “behavioral” interview has no behavior in it. It is bereft of behavior. It is all about talk. Tell me about a time… (Gee, should we be having a glass of wine in this interview right about now?) There are books that will teach you how to psych out the behavioral interview — and provide you with loads of “answers.” And that should be no surprise. Any scripted interview can be answered with scripted answers.

Just think about the magnitude of arrogance here. We’ll wire you up for a video call. We’ll show you nothing and no one in the company. We’ll ask you staged questions. We’ll record everything you say. We’ll run it through the A.I. interview analyzer (too bad we can’t get your whole body in there). And somewhere in a lab there’s a goon trying to figure out how to assess you for a job just by drawing a little blood…

Put your own behavior in the behavioral interview

If you want to cope with the behavioral interview, it’s important to think about what any interview should focus on: Behavior that demonstrates you can do the job profitably. (What a concept, eh?)

Here’s my idea of how a manager should conduct a real behavioral interview. Put the candidate in front of the work. Provide a bit of basic instruction, and let the candidate have at it. No, you can’t expect perfect performance. But the manager can observe (the behavior — remember that?), ask questions about the candidate’s performance; answer questions about the work, and discuss what the candidate is doing and thinking.

There is no way for a candidate to fake this. The only book the candidate can read to prepare for such an interview is one about the work: engineering, marketing, jamming the frammitz, or whatever. It can’t be faked. In the end, the manager judges the candidate’s ability to learn the work and to do the work. Coincidentally, this is how a manager evaluates employees — on their performance, not on double-talk.

I call this The Working Interview. Is it a perfect solution? Maybe not, but give me an engineer for an hour, and I’ll teach her how to interview another engineer better than any personnel jockey could with 50 psychologists backing her up.

Have a real interview with a real hiring manager

Okay, okay. So how should you deal with the behavioral interview? The only sensible strategy is to ensure that you’re going to interview with the hiring manager — not surrogates. Few candidates realize that they can insist on interviewing only with the manager. (Why waste your time with anyone else?) Please see How to get to the hiring manager. Politely answer the manager’s questions, and emphasize that you’d like a few minutes during your meeting to demonstrate your plan for doing the job profitably.

How to Say It
“I’m here to do a real behavioral interview. I’m here to show you — not just talk about — how I will do the job. Can we move out to your work area?”

A savvy manager will bail you out of the “interview laboratory” if you offer to do the job during your interview. But it takes brass — and lots of preparation — to ask for the opportunity. But there’s no magic involved.

Have you ever been asked to do a behavioral interview? How did you handle it? Did it help you get the job? If you’re a hiring manager or an HR manager, what’s your take on the behavioral interview? Can it predict the future?

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Question

I need to hire someone with some specialized skills that my team does not currently possess (a cross between a business analyst and a project manager). I have interviewed several people in my company who do the sorts of things I think I need. They are not available to assist, as they are already booked on other projects, but are willing to talk about what they do, how it benefits the company, what their credentials are, and so on. I even have the hiring slot available.

Now for the tough stuff. I have basically cobbled together a fictional position description to satisfy the Human Resources Department and posted the position internally. First, how do I determine what questions to ask potential candidates, since I am looking for skills neither I nor my team know much about? Second, how do I guide the successful applicant into a working slot that we are basically making up as we go along?

Nick’s Reply

That’s a good one. How do you select a person to do a job you haven’t defined which requires skills you don’t understand?

Beware the broken job

I applaud your honesty. Many managers try to fill jobs like that while pretending they know exactly what they’re doing. I call this a broken job.

• There’s no clear, objective definition of the work or the desired outcome.
• There’s no clear, objective measurement of performance.
• The manager is throwing bodies at a problem the manager doesn’t really understand.
• The manager desperately needs to have a short-term task done, but can’t specify what the job will entail afterward.

This is where honesty, candor and a willingness to break the rules will be more helpful than ten HR managers and a highly polished job description.

Do you need an employee or a consultant?

My first step in a situation like this would be to forget about the job description. You don’t really have one — except to appease HR — and you don’t really want one. It could lead you terribly astray. If you don’t know what you need, you’ll wind up hiring the wrong person to do it, and you’ll fire them for doing it poorly!

Step back and get a handle on what it is you’re managing. Are you managing an ongoing function or an outcome? This will help you figure out whether you really need to hire an employee to perform the function, or to contract with another department or consultant to manage the process that will yield the outcome you need.

Pick one or two people on your team to work with you on this “development” project. Then, break the rules. Don’t fill the position — not yet. Rent some help instead.

Get help

Invite a few consultants to come talk with you about the deliverable you’re trying to produce. (Alternately, arrange to have one of those internal experts visit with you. Maybe you can arrange for a part-time assignment, or a series of nice dinners where they can eat and teach.) Pay each of these consultants to show you what the deliverable is and how it’s produced. This should not take a lot of time or cost a lot of money. Using more than one consultant will help you triangulate on the truth you seek. Having a couple of team members work with you will keep you honest and avoid tunnel vision.

Finally, hire the best of the consultants to help you define the process (that is, the job), and to help you establish metrics for performance. This will take longer and cost a bit more, but it will cost less than hiring the wrong full-time employee from the get-go. As a manager, your first objective is to understand the work, not to get the job done.

Don’t set yourself up for failure

Once you’ve got a handle on what the work is all about, how it’s done, and how to measure performance, you can decide whether you need to hire someone, or subcontract the work to another department or assign the whole thing to a qualified consultant. You probably don’t need to be able to do the work yourself; you just need to “get it”.

You can even have the consultant help you recruit, guide a new hire into the job, and do some training. (HR might have a bird when you suggest this. Be ready to squawk back.)

Just remember: ultimately, the person responsible for the hire and the job function is you, not the consultant (or HR). If by this point you’re still not confident about managing this kind of job function, you need to seriously consider subcontracting it or assigning it to another department that can handle it. Don’t set yourself up for failure.

Beware the job description

Companies often waste their money on consultants. But, I believe this is a situation made for a consultant — an expert whose help you can apply over a finite period of time at a finite cost to improve your own ability to do your own job as a manager more profitably. Don’t be afraid to go into learning mode with a consultant. Admit what you don’t know and ask questions. Ask to be taught. Have the right attitude, and you will soon develop the knowledge you need to move ahead and tackle the challenge you face.

Job hunters take note. This honest manager has provided us with an important lesson; a secret about hiring. The job description on file down in the HR department might be a sham; nothing but a place-holder for a position that no one understands. What does that tell you about job descriptions? They’re often perfunctory, designed to satisfy bureaucracy’s hunger for paper; not to help you prepare for a job interview. To get the real scoop on a job, go talk to the manager and the manager’s team.

Ever apply for, or try to fill, a broken job — a job you don’t understand? Why does this happen? How can it be avoided? How should this manager proceed? There’s a whole other angle on this that I didn’t even touch on — what is it?

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Question

I have a new job lined up, so I am getting things in place to give notice at my current job.  My primary concern is bad references from this employer. The owner is extremely unprofessional, resulting in a dysfunctional work atmosphere. When I share examples of what happens at work with friends, it’s embarrassing to say them out loud. They are passive aggressive behaviors that you often need to witness and experience to understand. Given what is directed towards me in the office, and the phone conversations I have overheard when employers have called for references on former employees, I do not trust that I can use this person as a reference. Do you have a suggestion for how to objectively assess the risk of using this type of employment situation as a reference (the alternative being a 16 month hole on my resume)? And how much notice do I give in this situation? I feel trapped and want to minimize the ongoing negative impact of this employer. Thanks for your insight!

Nick’s Reply

It’s not at all uncommon for smart people to rationalize – and I think that’s what you’re doing. You make it clear what kind of person you’re working for. Why would you expect a useful reference from the owner, or even risk using this person as a reference? I think you know the answer to your own questions. I’m happy to tell you I think you’re right.

Balance bad references with more good references

References don’t have to be current or former bosses. There’s no hole in your references if you substitute others – co-workers and other managers in the company that you trust, and vendors, customers and others that think highly of you and your work. I’ve seen many cases where a job candidate had to explain (briefly – always make this brief) that their last boss was not someone of the highest integrity.

If your other good references from the company are candid with whoever is checking your references, they may acknowledge that your old boss is venomous and may give undeserved bad references.

The classic career advice in this situation is to just avoid listing your boss as a reference by saying it could cost you your job. But what if the new employer gives you an offer that you accept, and then asks to talk with your boss?

Put bad references in context

I find that candor can be the best solution to this problem. But I caution you – do not dwell on this when you explain to a new employer. Be brief. Don’t complain. Don’t explain. Don’t tell the story – keep it short.

Everyone knows there are some bad people out there. Your goal is to put them in context. If the new employer must talk with your boss, suggest they also talk with other people at work who (a) know and respect you, and (b) people that will put your ex-boss’s questionable comments in context.

I think that’s most of what you need to know. But if you feel you need more detailed help with your transition, see Parting Company: How to leave your job.

Don’t get stuck fearing the consequences of leaving – that’s a good way to get hurt. If you’re good at your work and have other good references who will speak up for you, move on.

As for how much notice to give, let that be determined by how difficult your boss makes your departure.

I wish you the best.

Has your boss ever given you bad references? What was the outcome? How have you avoided listing references you were worried about? Has an employer ever checked references behind your back, with people you didn’t tell them to contact?

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Question

I am a fan and am so glad I’ve followed your advice to not do an exit interview. I started working at a medical start-up two years ago as a nurse. I loved the job and the team and felt passionate about the work I was doing. Then the medical director lost the office manager and mismanaged things to the point that pay checks have been erratic. We are behind seven pay checks from last year and a handful from this year. The team is leaving and now it’s unsafe with the skeleton crew.

I have secured another job. Part of me feels that, as the only nurse, I have to give a good chunk of notice. One month is professional notice in my field. But, seeing as I haven’t been paid and it’s unlikely I’ll recoup any of the money owed to me once I leave without legal action, I don’t want to lose any more pay. The longer I stay, the more liability I hold. How much notice would you recommend that I give in this type of situation? Thank you in advance.

Nick’s Reply

I don’t normally reply to questions by e-mail, but I’m making an exception because I’ve got a soft spot for nurses (you’re more important to patients than doctors!) and your problem is an emergency. I also have a thing about employers who don’t meet payroll.

Paying employees is not optional

Your employer may already be in a lot of trouble. You will find some good resources at Workplace Fairness. Here is one useful tip from that website:

“Many states have laws that require employers to pay employees for all hours worked, and which require employers to pay employees at regular intervals, such as biweekly or semimonthly. These laws may impose penalties on employers who do not comply with the law, and may even provide for criminal prosecution.”

Please: Contact your state’s department of labor and employment immediately for guidance.

If employer hasn’t paid, see a lawyer

Given how much you are owed, you might want to consult a good labor attorney to protect your interests. An initial consultation need not cost much if anything. For a few extra bucks, the lawyer could write a demand letter and get you paid before the employer gets sued by creditors.

You must use your own judgment (and legal advice if you pursue it), but if I were owed seven paychecks, I’d be gone with a simple notice that I am resigning effective immediately because I have not been paid. I would not work one more hour. (See Giving notice when you resign: 6 ways to avoid trouble.) But first, check with your state’s labor office and/or a lawyer. You are being taken advantage of and that’s unforgivable.

Please let me know how this turns out. I admire your dedication and integrity — but don’t be played for a fool by an unscrupulous employer. You’re not being unprofessional; they are!

For more about how to leave a job, please see Parting Company: How to leave your job. I’m glad my advice about exit interviews proved helpful to you!

Reader’s Follow-up

Thank you for the response. It really helped to give me courage to get the heck out of there. I gave two weeks’ notice which I know I did not owe them. I felt some loyalty to some of our repeat patients. But I ended up not working all of my notice and e-mailing that I was no longer coming in and that I wouldn’t let my investment in my patients be leveraged against me to put my license and pay at risk.

Other employees and I have reported the owner to the labor board and legal action has started. I’m currently enjoying a stress-free two weeks before starting a more stable job. Thank you!

Dear Readers: Has your employer ever withheld your pay? What did you do about it? Does this reader owe any notice to the employer?

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Question

I have not been back to your forum in about a year or more, since you advised me to move on after I lost my job as a manager with a utility company after over 17 years. At that time I was very unhappy, depressed, and told you I wanted to go back. (They had offered me a job in the same company doing things I did ten years before.) You said, “Move on. Take your skills and give them to people who care.”

Well, I went to work for a general contracting company as a project manager. At that time I could not see past my own self-pity and thought I had made the worst move of my life. I must say it was the best move I ever made.

When I started, I knew nothing. But if you believe in yourself you can accomplish great things. Now I run multi-million dollar projects and I am a player within the group, providing advice and input. What I am saying is that this small company appreciates my efforts more than any large corporation would. I make more money then I ever did (40% more) and enjoy the true meaning of the free enterprise system (what it takes to make a dollar and hold onto it).

One final thing I would like to say to people is, believe in yourself. There are great small companies out there that will appreciate you more than a corporation. Don’t be afraid. Risks take people to new levels of who they are and what they can do and learn. Complacency breeds death in a person.

(People in my old company are still dying — it’s the golden handcuffs that keep them there). No matter who you work for, set realistic goals for what you want to accomplish. Evaluate the time you’ve spent and money you’ve earned. And if your employer can’t see your drive or contributions, then someone else will.

Thanks again, Nick! Life is great again, as it should be, for it’s too short.

Nick’s Reply

You just made my day. I love success stories, and yours is a special one. It’s the kind that teaches others they can change their lives, even when they’ve reached the end of their rope. I hope others take heart from your experience, and that they pause to remember that change requires risk.

Change is difficult, and the first step seems impossibly high, especially when you’ve got 17 years of history with a company tied around your ankles. It’s hard to move. I congratulate you, and I am very happy for you. You’re welcome. If anything I said helped you make the change you needed to, I’m glad.

Your story comprises both the Q and the A in this column. All I’d like to add is a little more perspective, in the form of two sage quotations that help keep me sane. I keep them taped to my computer display. One is from Marcus Aurelius: “The first rule is to keep an untroubled spirit. The second is to look things in the face and know them for what they are.”

The other is from Henri Amiel: “To be always ready, a man must be able to cut a knot, for everything cannot be untied.”

See the truth, and act. We all learn it from someone. If I can ask you for a favor in return, it’s this: When you next encounter someone who is down and out and needs encouragement and support, do what you can to help. Because the help only goes around when people make it go around.

I wish you all the best and I thank you for sharing your story.

NOTE: I frequently receive questions from people who’ve been fired and who have trouble moving on. Sometimes what’s better than my advice is a real-life story from someone that experienced it. This column is reprinted from Parting Company: How to leave your job (pp. 36-37).

How have you coped with getting fired? Did your career recover, or did you thrive as a result of the change forced on you? What advice (or cautions) can you offer others who’ve been fired? (Or has your problem been the opposite: shackled to your job with “golden handcuffs?”)

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