Question
The Engineering Director quit, and my manager was promoted to Director. I was promised that there would be room for promotion when I was hired, however someone else in the department has been promoted to be my manager. Do you have any suggestions on how to improve my chances of getting promoted to a management job?
Alternatively, I like my former manager (now Director) and I would like to continue to work for him directly, and not work for this other “peer” who is now my new boss. Should I be direct with the Director and ask to report to him directly, hint around at it, or keep my damn mouth shut? Should I read between the lines and start looking for another job?
Nick’s Reply
Ah, you’ve got move-over-itis — you’ve been “moved over” to make room for someone else. There’s no easy answer to this one. There are too many factors that you might not know about, and even more that I don’t know about. Let me try and give you some things to consider, then you’ll have to decide how to proceed.
Either (1) you didn’t get the job because they don’t think you can handle it (one problem), or (2) your new manager is more qualified than you are (a different problem).
Maybe you’re not ready for a management job
Let’s pursue (1) first. Try to apply The 4 Questions™ to your situation. Regarding the management position:
- Do you understand the management work that needs to be done? Are you sure? Why might management think you don’t? Have you ever discussed your understanding with higher management? Do they know you understand the work? (Or, do they have reason to suspect you don’t?)
- Are you able to demonstrate that you can do management work? Think about both the day-to-day functions of the job, as well as the more strategic requirements. In what ways have you demonstrated your management skills to the company? Did you give them any evidence that you could do the work? (Don’t say they didn’t ask you; they never will. It’s up to you.)
- Could you do the work the way the company would want it done? This relates to style, attitude, work ethic, philosophy, and your willingness to “enlist” as a member of a team. Would you be a manager who fits, or one who doesn’t quite?
- Could you do the work profitably for the company and for yourself? That is, what would your efforts as a manager bring to the bottom line? Yup — I’m looking for an actual figure. A good manager understands costs and profitability. Your estimate might be way off, but you’ve got to be able to show that you can come up with a figure you can defend. Have you thought about that job in such detail? Finally, would the job be good for you? Would it “profit” your career or your wallet? Not all engineers are management material; and not all managers are great engineers.
The 4 Questions™ are a good tool for testing your readiness for any kind of job.
You might want to talk to your old boss confidentially, and ask why you were passed over. It’s a bit of a risk; but so is keeping your mouth shut, right?
Your new boss may be a better manager
Let’s go to (2). If the new manager is better at the work than you would be, the case is closed. But if you really want a management job down the road, a new case opens, and I think you need to take an honest look at what skills and talents your promoted peer has that you don’t.
Don’t go crying sour grapes; it’s too late for that particular job. But staying in place and learning from your new boss about how to manage may be the silver lining in this case. This may be a good way to learn what they’re looking for in a manager. Your old peer who’s now your boss might actually make a good mentor.
Your old boss may be your best boss
I like your alternative, too. Your old boss could be your best ally if you approach him in a candid but professional way. It sounds like you have a good relationship. I’d bring it up over a casual lunch off-site: Is there a place somewhere else on his team? Let him be a dutch uncle. Ask for advice, not explanations.
Finally, your idea of seeking a job with your old manager may be a good solution. It could get you into a new domain with fresh responsibilities and with a new opportunity to demonstrate your value to the company. And, it may get you away from the new manager, whom you don’t seem to like working for. (Is that your competitive nature talking, or your disappointment, or is your new boss really not worth working for?)
All these questions, eh? Hope one or more of them lead you toward your goal (or toward a new goal).
Have you lost a management job opportunity? Was it because you weren’t ready, or because someone else was more ready? What have you done to prepare and position yourself to become a manager?
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Why not just start with the direct approach? I would hope that the new Engineering Director works be leading the selection process fur their successor. Get their thoughts from the start. Not questioning the decision. Asking what would make you more competitive in the future.
The answers received will tell you a lot about the director and the company. You might not want to work for the director after hearing the answer. Evaluating the four questions is valuable, but more valuable after receiving feedback.
Is the poster expecting to the sand job but just report a level up? Would that make sense for the organization? Friends on function. But it would be a sap in the face to the new manager and would make the manager appear weak. I would never approve that as director. Dues the director have a staff? Is their a staff position open? Is the poster qualified for the staff job? Would it be helpful? Would it be enjoyable? Those are the questions to ask.
I am in a situation where I have a new boss who was a peer. The next level up position opened up. I will be the first to say that although I have “potential”, my former peer is more qualified for the position now. We often do not agree. That is ok. Actually, it is better than good. I speak my mind (respectfully and at an appropriate time) and explain my counter viewpoint. My new boss listens, considers, decides, and explains why. I execute once the decision is made and I am learning a lot from a different point of view. It is helping me grow and be prepared. Don’t necessarily take this as a negative.
As a former career coach, and non-supervisory functionary in manufacturing, have seen this scenario often. Would counsel others to look two levels up for the explanation. . . .the new Director. If the new Director is savvy about internal politics, the problem might be one level further up.
OTH, there is what I call “the chief wrench bender” approach to overall corporate philosophy regarding who “deserves” promotion. That is, the most competent engineer is obviously best chosen to lead other engineers. The management part (unpleasant for technical types) is a minor consideration, and the new promotee will somehow figure it out. The notion of promoting the most experienced specialist is not a new phenomenon.(Note: it was a biscuit salesman who rescued IBM back in the 90s (?), not a computer engineer).
Most commercial entities do not have a management/leadership training program, and every new supervisor/manager is on their own. Not to mention that most specialists want to keep doing the job they were promoted from, because it is what really motivates them, and a promotion is a reward for past performance, not an expectation they will do even more for the company in an elevated position.
Overall, being passed over means you are not “connected” inside the organization. And, if a person is not promotion material at their current location, they are not especially positioned to be selected for a higher position at a different company.
Just maybe, it is best we not be promoted to our level of incompetence, and keep doing what we like best.
What is the proper term here? Oh, yes, “Jes sayin’.”
Your statements about promoting the technical expert and letting them manage other engineers is absolutely true. And even if a company has a management training program, it does not mean that the promoted tech expert will have taken advantage of it!
I was that manager. Promoted for tech skills. I tried to do the “dirty” management work along with my tech work. It did not work. I recognized it. I was not doing the job I wanted tonin either. I signed up for a training class and it was good. I learned a lot. At the same time, one of my team’s projects got cancelled.
I gave the Team lead my project soni could focus more on being a manager. Best thing I could have done. I learned to appreciate success differently. I gained fulfillment from the success of others rather than myself. I learned that I could get more accomplished guiding others than I could do with my own two hands
It took a mentality shift in my head. Although the above sounds like it was immediate, it was not. I struggled with it. It was hard. But it is important to never stop learning and growing.
Good on ya’, Mate !
@Rob: Why do companies take the best staff member and promote them to management? Good question. In my experience, it’s because staff positions (engineer in this case) have no growth path. It’s management or stagnation. Why does anyone believe that because you’re good at engineering you’ll be good at management, especially without management training of some sort?
Answer: Poor management at the next higher levels. They’re who decide to make more managers out of engineers. The really sad thing is, the company wastes a perfectly good engineer and possibly ruins the person’s career.
That is not entirely true. My current organization has six levels for engineers. You advance up the ranks as your skills grow and your scope increases. There are criteria for it. It is written a little broadly, but the managers do have the ability to provide more details. The pay on the technical side encompass all levels of pay up to the lowest levels of senior leadership (Directors, VPs, one step below C-suite level). My prior employer was similar, but with only 4 levels. They also had a technical and a management track. The management track did go higher than the technical track.
Flow from technical to management to technical happens. Again, pay overlaps. I have bounced between IC and management throughout my career. Bottomline, in the companies that I have worked in, there are ways to move up to very high levels even staying as an IC. I am by no means saying it is automatic. In my current company the bottom 4 levels are pretty normal. Getting to 5 and 6 is tough. Very, very strong. In my past company, 1-3 were pretty normal. Getting to 4 was a challenge. Getting to the Sr. Leadership level is tough anywhere.
I have seen three ways to be promoted during my career.
1. Move up a level as you have gained experience. Level 1 to Level 2, etc. You prove yourself, you are given harder problems, you show technical independence and mentorship, etc. It is defined. It happens during regular performance cycles and occasionally at the mid-cycle.
2. A higher level position opens up/new position is created. You usually need to apply, but you are occasionally asked to apply. Sometimes, you are just assigned, but that isn’t common. This is often how one gets into management, staff, highest level IC positions. A position has to open up. These roles are not handed out lightly. This was the case for the OP. The management position opened up, the OP applied, but did not receive the position.
3. A role grows to the point where the title/position no longer match the responsibilities. This is the least common. Companies try to avoid doing this as much as possible. What company does not like paying someone a lower pay than the position should demand? But, sometimes companies realize they need to bite the bullet and upgrade a position.
@Just Me: That’s a good company! Kudos to them for having good, multiple career tracks!
@Nick, In my field, this seems pretty standard. My company is rather small (300-400) and it is typical in this class as well as in the large companies in the space which are over 100K employees.
Don’t all companies mention the potential for promotion when they are interviewing? Is it a true promise that we will be promoted at all, or even the very next opportunity? No.
The way you describe your peer who got the promotion and how you don’t want to work for him sounds very self-absorbed and immature. This may be why you didn’t get the promotion. Most of life is not fair.
Your new boss may know your attitude and plans may be made to help you out the door if you can’t pivot your attitude.
The way to play the promotion game is to be genuinely happy for the new peer who will be your boss. Help this person and your department succeed. Pay attention to the game of who is hired and promoted at this company. Start a quiet job search if you can’t play the game.
I have seen a variety of factors involved in hiring and getting promotions. Sometimes it is not even based on who is most qualified.
And I have rarely seen the person who is promoted be the most qualified or deserving.
Story of my life. In 34 years I never ONCE was promoted to anything. I either had to take it or get hired as the person.
I tend to work myself out of a job by being too efficient or more knowledgeable than the person “training” me.
Everyone can argue technical skills, knowledge, “fit”….
Here is what it really comes down to, how much brown nosing you do, in an effective non annoying way, and how politically savvy are you.
Nothing else matters. Proof of that is in the military, when command started promoting women to high ranks. Some had the needed skills and knowledge, but the majority were promoted based on………political optics, same with the current LA fire chief and many corporate executives. You could be the NO1 software coder and cyber security specialist in the world, but you talk differently, look different, whatever. The company will look at how well you will fit the “image”
Before they promote.
It is stupid and sad. No, not everyone is a manager, but everyone SHOULD be given the option to be one if they are qualified. How many millions are companies loosing over choosing the “eye candy” over the brains……
I would do a direct ask, if the answer is crap, move on.
It is not the director in this case that made the decision, it was some board or advisory committee that did. This means the company only sees you as valuable in the position you fill and they rely too heavily on the status quo.
@Dennis: Bingo. Few companies provide any kind of employee development (translation: training), in part because the job boards promise to deliver “the perfect candidate” instantly. Of course, they cannot and do not deliver.
Having worked directly with many high ranking military officers, I can tell you that I never saw any “eye candy”. Are there high ranking O-5’s and O-6’s who were promoted above their ability? Certainly. But I experienced more white males (even percentage-wise) who were promoted above their ability than women and minorities.
At the flag level, my experience was that everyone was sharp as hell. Did I agree or like all? Nope. Did I think some were asses? Yup. But I respected their intellect, abilities, and qualifications.
I am sorry that you had different experiences.
To Dennis Gibb:
I tend to work myself out of a job by being too efficient or more knowledgeable than the person “training” me.
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In my 40-year career, I’ve often had to quickly navigate the company maze to find better opportunities. Sometimes it worked; other times, it didn’t. Some managers were very competent and on point, allowing me to work on extra-curricular projects when asked. However, other managers were so incompetent that most employees were willing to walk off the job—this happened a few times. I recommend talking with employees in different depaprtment – you’d be surprised at ther perspectives, which I find valuable. Asking someone directly about the non-promotion can be risky, if you don’t know all the facts first.
FWIW, people hire people they like; people promote people they like. Regardless of skill competency, be likeable.
@Rob: I believe this is generally true. It can work for you or against you.
No one really wants an iconoclast in their organization. Old story: a young lieutenant (leftenant for UK) was admitted to a senior staff meeting. During the meeting, the General hosting the meeting delivered some instructions to staff. Noting that staff had not adequately prepared the General for the meeting, the lieutenant ran through several points of correction. As the meeting ended, the lieutenant moved to apologize for speaking out at his first meeting. The lieutenant said to the General, “Sir, I am certain you did not make General by holding your tongue when you saw things going wrong.” The General, leaned toward the lieutenant, and sayd, “No, but that is how I made captain”.
So many unknowns. How long the poster’s been with his former boss now Director, size of organization.
the poster noted he was promised room for a promo & counted on it. Seemingly like all such promises..there was an unstated caveat in the promise, IF ready & able.
the poster seemed to think that was an exclusive promise…only to him and as such a given. the poster didn’t seem to grasp that the same promise was made to others. And it was met with his boss’s replacement. Someone else’s time had arrived. That’s corporate life.
And his former boss, now Director. Also ready & able.
The poster noted his new boss came from within the Dept. If by Dept the poster meant, managed by his former boss, then a former peer got the mgmt job, If by Dept he means the Director’s Dept then someone from a peer manager to his boss’s Dept, got the job he wanted, meaning most likely recommended by the departing Director and/or a VP boss of the Director. As such, best case, your former boss put the poster’s name forward, but was overridden.
The key info the poster didn’t provide is if the poster and former boss ever discussed the interest in, and possibility of a move into mgmt per se and specifically stepping into his bosses role if it opened up? Or did the poster just assume per the aforementioned promise it was understood?
Most of my time in mgmt and working with and for other managers and bosses it was understood common mgmt sense, is that you grow your team. For your team, the company, and frankly yourself. If done right, you have grown, and positioned someone(s) to take your place, if the need arises. By affording them the opportunity to develop & demonstrate mgmt capability. You do this via team leadership, standing in for you when you’re not available or stand in for you as your rep & other Dept delegations. Conversely, if you’re going to be a butt and do everything yourself to feed your ego and attempt to be indispensable you likely aren’t going anywhere nor will anyone else.
Whether the poster’s had such discussions with the former boss, this needs to be done with the new one ASAP. Leave you ego and hurt feelings at the door. I’d expect the 1st thing this new Mgr will do is review the records (appraisals etc), talk with the now Director, get a feel for who he/she’s inherited and then start talking to the team, one by one and as a team. The poster has the opportunity to discuss what they do, want to do, and why, in their own words, one on one. You can assume the new boss is not a mind reader. Then watch what happens. Are you getting chances to show your mgmt skills?
If not, no matter what’s said, actions speak & you’ve got your answer & you’ll need to move on.
As to the idea of working for the Director. Nick’s suggestion to have an unofficial “chat” with the former boss/Director is a good one. But be politically savvy, by unofficial/informal that’s the best way of avoiding getting someone’s nose out of joint by seemingly violating the chain of command. Or you can tell the new boss you want to drop by and talk with the Director, but that’s touchy ground.
But…shame on the poster if they don’t understand the organization they’re playing in, as to politics and function. When posing the desire to work for the Director follow the adage “Don’t bring me problems, bring me solutions”. You don’t want to present yourself as “here I am, now you figure out what to do with me” If you have a target role, great! pitch to it. If you don’t, propose one(s). Based on a value add to the Director’s Dept, & hence to the company..and to the Director. The best value add, is you’ll pitch increased revenue growth or cost reduction or the home run of effecting both. This also is mgmt speak if you really yearn for that.
Again watch what happens. If nothing, you’ve got your answer. 2 choices, stick around hoping and waiting, or move on.
We, as a culture, are conditioned to discover the benchmarks for advancement, collect them, then wait for the promotion committee to select us whenever it is “our turn”, or when we complete the requirements. As it is, we are never told, or accustomed to that the award is not for past performance, but past performance and the perception that one can contribute well beyond past performance (and of course being connected with the right people while checking off all the boxes we were told were essential). My conclusion is we treat careers like beauty pageants; the best looking wins the flowers.
Truth is, it is a jungle out there, and no one is obligated to help you survive.
Some organizations lean heavily on hierarchy and internal relationships, where fairness can feel inconsistent. Others are more performance-driven, where merit and measurable results are rewarded more directly.
The lesson is to become complete: build skill, produce results, earn trust, communicate value, and understand the system you are in.
So be honest: were you the strongest candidate, did the decision makers trust you to be at the next level? Ultimately you will have to decide is this organization worth winning in?
If you were not the best candidate yet, improve. If the system does not reward growth or integrity, consider leaving for one that does.
My observation is that nobody gives you something you did not ask for. Promotions are not automatic. Being told that “there is room for promotion” does not guarantee that you will be offered the position. In my experience, everyone who was offered a promotion had actively campaigned for that position, and had scoped it out and worked toward it. They were gradually given more leadership responsibilities and brought into higher level meetings, so that they were well prepared for the different skills for managers than for engineers. Often there are engineer levels that can be reached with promotions, but moving from engineering to management is a totally different situation.
Has anyone ever been told, “We are hiring you into a dead end position. There is no opportunity for growth in responsibility or pay other than yearly cost of living increases if we choose to offer it any particular year.”. I am not saying that no one has ever been offered this in reality. Simply that a company has not told you there is the potential for growth.
It is a throwaway line.
I had the “opportunity” to do a management position where I worked. I was sent to another engineering department to quiet the restless natives. Unfortunately for all those involved including myself, I ended up wearing the face make up and feathers of those I was sent to quell. So much for my management career. Be careful of what you ask for.
@Chief, that is great! You have to stand up for what is right!
I had a similar kind of experience, but survived to manage another day. My boss, who was annoyed when he had to do his job instead of sucking up to his boss, told me, “Just take the initiative and do what needs to be done. There is nothing you can do that I cannot undo.’. Challenge accepted. Turned out, I could do things he could not undo. (Thankfully, they turned out well.)