Question
I have a new job lined up, so I am getting things in place to give notice at my current job. My primary concern is bad references from this employer. The owner is extremely unprofessional, resulting in a dysfunctional work atmosphere. When I share examples of what happens at work with friends, it’s embarrassing to say them out loud. They are passive aggressive behaviors that you often need to witness and experience to understand. Given what is directed towards me in the office, and the phone conversations I have overheard when employers have called for references on former employees, I do not trust that I can use this person as a reference. Do you have a suggestion for how to objectively assess the risk of using this type of employment situation as a reference (the alternative being a 16 month hole on my resume)? And how much notice do I give in this situation? I feel trapped and want to minimize the ongoing negative impact of this employer. Thanks for your insight!
Nick’s Reply
It’s not at all uncommon for smart people to rationalize – and I think that’s what you’re doing. You make it clear what kind of person you’re working for. Why would you expect a useful reference from the owner, or even risk using this person as a reference? I think you know the answer to your own questions. I’m happy to tell you I think you’re right.
Balance bad references with more good references
References don’t have to be current or former bosses. There’s no hole in your references if you substitute others – co-workers and other managers in the company that you trust, and vendors, customers and others that think highly of you and your work. I’ve seen many cases where a job candidate had to explain (briefly – always make this brief) that their last boss was not someone of the highest integrity.
If your other good references from the company are candid with whoever is checking your references, they may acknowledge that your old boss is venomous and may give undeserved bad references.
The classic career advice in this situation is to just avoid listing your boss as a reference by saying it could cost you your job. But what if the new employer gives you an offer that you accept, and then asks to talk with your boss?
Put bad references in context
I find that candor can be the best solution to this problem. But I caution you – do not dwell on this when you explain to a new employer. Be brief. Don’t complain. Don’t explain. Don’t tell the story – keep it short.
Everyone knows there are some bad people out there. Your goal is to put them in context. If the new employer must talk with your boss, suggest they also talk with other people at work who (a) know and respect you, and (b) people that will put your ex-boss’s questionable comments in context.
I think that’s most of what you need to know. But if you feel you need more detailed help with your transition, see Parting Company: How to leave your job.
Don’t get stuck fearing the consequences of leaving – that’s a good way to get hurt. If you’re good at your work and have other good references who will speak up for you, move on.
As for how much notice to give, let that be determined by how difficult your boss makes your departure.
I wish you the best.
Has your boss ever given you bad references? What was the outcome? How have you avoided listing references you were worried about? Has an employer ever checked references behind your back, with people you didn’t tell them to contact?
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From early on in a new role, I look for people who I can use for a reference. Especially coworkers.
This is especially critical if I am looking for a new role, but am not specifically wanting to leave my current job.
I look for people that I can introduce as “informal leaders.” The kind of people that we go to for advice or problems before we bring the boss in to it.
This kind of references has always served me well.
Your advice is sound. At best the current job should only be used for the pre employment check verifying dates of employment. Which will likely tip off the owner, so this candidate needs to cover that. If the person uses current employees for the personal reference check, if the boss is as vindictive as depicted, our candidate may be putting them at risk so non office phones should be used..
Make sure the job offer is in writing, all the pre checks are done, and a firm start date is set. In fact, I’ve heard of the strategy to use a week’s vacation to start the job and then giving notice, but this place sounds too small to pull that off.
As to giving notice, formally submit two weeks but expect immediate cutoff of the email, phone, and frogmarching out the door in 15 minutes. Get everything personal out of there well before. And be happy!!
I knew someone who at the end of their “vacation”, the first week of their new job, mailed a resignation letter (before email) timed to arrive on the day they were supposed to come back. Obviously, they weren’t giving notice.
re: “use a week’s vacation”
Most places I have worked specifically state that PTO can not be used during the notice period.
When I set a “first day” at a new job, I tell them that I will put in my notice, but sometimes we are let go immediately. And in that case, I will be available to start earlier.
This person didn’t care about payouts such as earned vacation or benefits. The danger in this is that your final check incorporating vacation wouldn’t be paid. The strategy was to ensure that the new job worked out. I don’t think you could do this today, especially with things like benefit coverage. On that last point, it’s best to depart a job at the top of the month as your benefits are paid through the end of the month.
I never understood the references thing.
It might be because of the industry I will forever be stuck in. I am at a point now where any references I had are either dead, retired, or are personal friends.
I never seek out co workers for references nor do I seek out bosses or managers.
If they offer a reference, I ask for them to put it in writing. I have found that people will often say things to undermine another even if they are not doing it consciously. Might be out of jealousy, envy, or something more personal.
One should need a reference if one can actually do as one says.
I do agree that having a few known people in your back pocket can help. As long as the people are known outside of the industry you were working in.
Example; any one know who Rob Muzzy was?
(For those that do, how would a reference from him help one get a job in say….construction, or banking?)
Rob Muzzy can easily be found in a Google search. His word might carry weight outside his industry in terms of one’s on-time or within budget delivery of assignments.
Rob Muzzy is dead.
He was a premier motorcycle racing and tuning guy.
Explain how a reference from a racing legend carries any weight outside of the very small circle that in motorcycles?
Car guys have no idea who he is, neither do aerospace companies.
Google search is NOT a reference,
Point is, references are only good if one stays in the same field, or in a related field.
A reference from a boss at Home Depot is not going to matter much if you try to work for Schwab.
Nick, as often your advice is spot on. One of my clients faced a similar situation and what we learned from it was to do the following:
1) Mention the company on your resume.
2) Gather favorable references from those who know the client’s work and are willing to speak to it.
3) When asked for references, provide a reference sheet listing the chosen references including the bad manager.
4) Then explains very briefly that the other references should be consulted especially for this position as you have reason to believe that they might provide a more helpful context.