Question
I thought the job posting was legit, so I applied online. Then I had to submit my resume and did a grueling 45 minute “robo”-interview with no real interviewer. Then I filled out more online forms, took a skills test (also online), submitted my list of references and waited. And waited. Yup — they ghosted me. Throughout all this, no human ever spoke to me. And that job? I learned from a company insider there was never any such job open to begin with! Just how widespread are ghost jobs and ghosting? How can we avoid having our time wasted by unethical employers?
Nick’s Reply
Well, you could move to New Jersey and cross your fingers. The state’s legislature is considering a “no ghosting” bill (A4625) that sets forth requirements for publicly advertised job postings. For example, you would never have the experience you described because the job posting would have to state whether it is for an existing position.
The measure, which was approved by the N.J. State Assembly Labor Committee, also requires an employer to provide a time frame in which the employer anticipates filling the position, and to remove a job posting when the job has been filled. The bill is still in the legislative process.
Ghost jobs & ghosting of job seekers
It gets better. (Maybe in response to the “tricks” of ghosting this is the “treat” part of Halloween?)
The bill also would also stop employers from ghosting job candidates after interviewing them. The bill provides that,
“If the employer interviews an applicant for the position, the employer is required, within the time frame provided in the job advertisement, to provide the applicant with an affirmative response as to whether the position has been filled, or if the position has not been filled, [and] whether the employer is still considering the applicant for the position.”
Could it get any better?
This legislation also targets recruiters and job boards.
“Third-party job posting entities [are required] to remove positions that have been filled, and it provides the Department of Labor and Workforce Development with the authority to audit employers and third-party job posting entities for ongoing violations. Any person who violates the provisions of the bill will be subject to civil penalties.”
The trouble with New Jersey is that virtually no news outlets picked up this story.
Ghost jobs & ghosting of job seekers: It’s Halloween every day
Needless to say, business groups protested at a Labor Committee hearing — just as they protested the $15/hour minimum wage. A local radio station reported that Assemblyman Brian Bergen, who voted against the bill, complained, “We always attack the employer and it’s not right. This bill does not solve any legitimate problem out there. This is not an issue.”
Ghosting? There’s no ghosting by employers going on in this fair state!
Assemblyman Joe Danielsen, a sponsor of the bill, was having none of that. “These practices harm job seekers by wasting their valuable time and effort on non-existent opportunities.”
Yes, it’s that simple. For job seekers, ghosting has made everyday Halloween and has turned employers, recruiters and the job-board industry into shameless tricksters. The N.J. Assembly should see what our community has to say: Ghosting: Hard lessons about recruiters & employers.
Penalties
Employers with 10 or more employees would be affected. Violators would be issued a warning and scofflaws would be fined no less than $1,000 but no more than $5,000 for each ghosting incident. (How many expired or fake job postings can you count?) If the violation continues past a month, it will be considered a new violation exacting another fine. For example, if an employer or job board fails to remove an offending posting, the fine is assessed anew.
Of particular interest is references in the bill to “third-party job-posting entities,” which presumably includes headhunters, recruiters and job boards. It will be interesting to watch the progress of this bill — but people in New Jersey and across the nation need to be aware of it.
To the N.J. legislator who voted against the bill because “This bill does not solve any legitimate problem out there,” I say BUNK! This is a problem of epic proportions that affects every job seeker in the nation. Mouthpieces for business groups that cry it’s not right to “attack” employers should try to find a new job — if they can find a legitimate job posting! And political ideologues who argue “there’s too much government regulation” — well, you probably haven’t had to look for a job in a very long time!
What you can do
To answer your two questions, ghost jobs and ghosting of job seekers is prevalent enough of a problem that legislators — at least in N.J. — felt it was time to start regulating the public recruiting process.
What you can do is send a copy of N.J.’s bill A4625 to legislators in your state — and in the U.S. Congress and the Senate — and urge them to enact laws to stop employers from posting ghost jobs and from ghosting job seekers after recruiting them.
Do we need regulation of job advertisements and the job interview protocol? How would you make N.J.’s bill more effective? Do you think it would pass into law in your state? What else can we do to fix this epidemic of job fakery and associated trouble it causes job applicants?
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If I already knew a company insider, I would contact that person before filling out a bunch of forms, submitting a resume, and submitting to a “robo interview”, not after.
I’m retired now, but if I were looking for a job I would NEVER participate in a robo interview.
Nick, as much as I’ve always agreed with you in the past, I disagree with this one. It’s not Halloween; it’s Christmas. This is a long-overdue gift for every job-seeker and downsized employee who spent countless hours filling out mindless forms with information already listed on the resume they’re required to attach, who spent evenings and weekends researching a company and its history & what it does so they could be knowledgeable for the interview, who traveled — at personal expense — to interview locations and spent money they could not afford on gas, parking, public transportation, etc. only to find at the end that there never was a job, that the position was canceled (but still advertised!), or filled in at the last moment from within. I seem to recall there was a story a few years ago about companies complaining that new employees were “ghosting” them by not showing up on the agreed first day or simply walking off without giving notice or explanation. I can’t say I agree entirely with their approach — word travels in business circles — but I do remember the corporate minion who posted and complained about it got roasted by countless job seekers who considered it a just come-uppance for all the ghosting and lousy treatment they endured from countless companies misleading and ghosting them. This legislation is something long-overdue, and it deserves to (hopefully) catch on like wildfire.
@John: I don’t think there’s much chance of this bill going through but I hope I’m wrong. There needs to be a furor over it, or I think special interests will quietly kill it. I’ve seen no coverage in the media other than in my buddy Suzanne Lucas’s column in Inc. — and she found out about the bill from this website.
I hope this bill passes and spreads to other states. Colorado took the bold step of requiring postings to include a pay range in job postings. If both of these laws catch on nationwide, it’ll save millions and millions of hours of wasted time every year that are currently spent (by both job-seekers and employers) on screwing around with fake postings and so-called “opportunities” that have zero chance of working out for anybody involved.
The solution is NOT norepinephrine laws but people like us outing companies by name on this and other sites. However, almost nobody has done so.
Ghosting is irritating yes, arguably awful – but it’s impossible to legislate a way to a perfect world. How would this thing be policed, and by whom, for one thing? And at what cost? Astute job seekers at any level know that the human connection is the way to go. You’ve built your writing around this precept for decades. Even with a law like this as a crutch, anyone job hunting without knowing how to do it right will be at a massive disadvantage.
@Dave: I’m not a fan of more laws, but I will not be hamstrung by ideology in the face of one of the most compelling frauds of our time. Sometimes we need a new law because employers and the “employment system” — e.g., LinkedIn, job boards, ATS vendors and users, the HR profession, etc. — lie to millions of job seekers every time they leave a job posting up after the job is filled, or when they post a job that’s not really available for other reasons, or ghost an earnest job candidate after interviewing them. (“We just cannot respond personally to every person that submits a job application to us!” is an enormous load of b.s. The only reason employers have so many applicants for a job is that they solicit too many of them via ill-suited means.)
It’s long past time for a “truth in advertising” law in employment transactions. I understand your hesitation about how to police and enforce it and how to pay for this. But it can be worked out, and my guess is the savings in time, money and efficiency would far outweigh any implementation costs. Let’s figure it out. Successful examples abound: Mandated lists of ingredients in food products. Full disclosures about side effects of drugs. Lemon laws for cars. Homeowner disclosures for real estate transactions.
Less legislation makes sense when we’re talking about a village where social sanctions for bad behavior are swift and effective. When we’re talking about a nation of hundreds of millions, it’s just too easy for a handful of bad actors to screw over most of the public. Let’s face it: America’s Employment System is a whale of a fraud so big we can no longer judge clearly what’s real and what’s not, or what kinds of behavior are right or wrong — so the public huffs and takes what the System throws at them.
It’s time for a law like this. The job of our elected officials is to demonstrate their acumen by implementing it in a fair and effective way.
Thanks for your kind words about my job-seeking advice. But what we learn and discuss here about job hunting is a paltry defense against Stupid Recruiting & Hiring.
If applicants would post the name of the company that ghosted them in any way on web pages such as Nicks , that would be a major deterrent
This practice is one of the primary things that drove me to clinical depression after I lost my 30-year job in 2009. Two rounds of unemployment, six years surviving a survival job, and eight years of retirement later, I can finally declare myself depression-free.
Not that I’m bitter . . .
Third Party Job Posting Entities, INDEED! Linked IN is rife with them. Although I’m in ‘late career’ mode, I still keep an eye out for jobs that may make sense. First step is to get to the company website, and the HR manager…unless I know someone already working there. An email to HR,
with a short bio is my first step, to initiate conversation. If it develops, a one-page bio/CV follows.
But these days LinkedIN is overwhelmingly being played by would be job agents, who often have no idea of what a position might entail, or what the company actually does or needs, or for that matter, where the job is located. (just say “remote”…they’ll figure it out eventually.).
How anyone can yield to a Key Word Search is beyond me, and yet these ‘job agents’ soldier on, spewing meaningless superlatives or job specs that demonstrate that they have no idea what the job is about.
I see ghost jobs all the ime. Especially from 3d party firms, but what is the purpose? What value is a company getting from these?
@Brian: “It’s important that we keep our candidate pipeline full, so we post jobs that will be opened later.”
That’s often the excuse.
I’m all for recruiting all the time. But not for lying about it because lying seems easier than explaining the truth.
My state is exactly on the right track but the chance this will pass before end of session is minimal.
As to our ghosted candidate, I would and have stopped at the robo-interview. To go on and submit references and take tests without humans…NOPE. These companies need to be outed as I did on LinkedIn and dragged.
Tell us the company names.
Sorry Nick,
I am 100% against you on this. Places like NJ, CA, WA,OR,NY,MI,ETC that talk about imposing more laws to “help” the little people are full of s!it. More laws solve nothing, more regs solve nothing, more rules do nothing. A law like this will lead to a stagnant job market, an unwillingness to even seek new hires and it will lead to jobs leaving the state for a much more business friendly state.
There is one thing that can be done within existing law, declare all automated job services like ATS, violate the civil rights laws in regard to discrimination.
In my opinion, a law like this is like a law against “ghost guns”. It solves nothing and is impossible to enforce as the very people writing it have no clue what a “ghost job, employer ghosting, ghost guns, marshmallow ghosts, or ghost poop” really is
We need to demand that our elected officials work within the already established law and start enforcing the discrimination act.
@Dennis: Please see my comment to Dave above.
This may sound outlandish, but this article made me wonder if AI…or a bad player using AI…could use fake job postings to gather enormous amounts of information (professional history, voice, facial image) about a person in order to conduct identity theft. It could be theft of personal or professional identity. In a 45 minute interview, or even a 15 minute one, a person would reveal a lot of legitimate information about themselves that could be misused by a bad player. I’ve seen some deep fake videos and memes that are pretty convincing. They target famous people now. But they could very easily target regular people too, to ruinous effect. Targeting job prospects at companies within a person’s sphere of connections seems so limited. But perhaps it’s the safer way to go, if it’s the only way to get in front of a true human.
they definitely do.
@ThinkTooMuch: In 2001 Pam Dixon at the World Privacy Forum wrote this exclusive expose for Ask The Headhunter:
Click, You’re Hired. Or Tracked…
A Report on the Privacy Practices of Monster.com
https://www.asktheheadhunter.com/gv011023.htm
Job boards have been used extensively to commit identity theft from their inception.
Could a company be sued for false advertising if they post a job that does not exist?
Also, what is the benefit to the company to post a job that does not exist?
At the federal level, entities can be prosecuted by the U.S. Federal Trade Commission for violations of truth-in-advertising statutes.
At the state level, Attorneys General also have the power to prosecute for false advertising.
Lastly, every state has an Unfair and Deceptive Trade Practices Act which empowers consumers to sue entities directly for harms caused through trickery, but a successful prosecution almost always requires definitive proof of financial loss. It’s not sufficient to simply accuse Acme Corporation of wasting your time by causing you to apply online for a job that didn’t exist. But if you bought a new interview suit and incurred travel expenses, that might give you standing to sue for compensatory and punitive damages.
(Disclaimer: I’m not an attorney.)
Nick,
Thanks for the legislative info. Tho I’m long retired, these bad actors need to be reined in. What makes individuals think that being a selfish a×× is acceptable online? Time to grow up, knuckleheads! We don’t need more jerks in this country. Good luck if that’s all u have to offer.
There is a scam where they interview you for a job at a legitimate job and they announce you are hired. So you fill out an I-9 and a W2 etc.
You show up for job on the day and find out there was no job
But then you find your checking account has been cleaned out.
Help me with this issue, please: why would an employer use this tactic. What are they getting out of ghosting job seekers.
Thanks
@Albert Willis: Too many employers don’t care how they treat applicants. They can’t be bothered to program automated rejection emails. Or they think applicants will figure it out on their own that they’re not hired. Yes, we do, and we remember.
As for employers who advertise for non-existent jobs then ghost the applicants, that’s even worse. No ethics, no basic courtesy. I remember employer routinely advertised fake jobs. It helped HR look good because they had all these applications to process. Supposedly HR kept the best applicants on file, but I doubt they ever contacted them when real job vacancies came up because they’d simply advertise the jobs. And sometimes they wanted to see people’s references/contacts rather than considering the applicants.
I’m glad that NJ has taken this step. I don’t know how they’ll enforce it, but I hope they figure it out. And I hope other states do the same.
They can enforce this step by having candidates provide evidence to the state when they interview. This can be something like audio recordings and emails from the company.
When these companies get fined, the state can release the names of the companies.
The state can also ban employers from any government contracts.
The legitimate employers aren’t do this at all. It’s all scammers doing while spoofing legitimate employers.
But the jobs aren’t real either. The job descriptions are specific enough to look plausible so highly paid people “apply” for these jobs, because the theives like to clean out large bank accounts.
@Lucille: I assure you, it’s not just scammers ghosting. Lots of major league companies are doing it.
@Nick, Yes, but I wanted to publish this news here, because ghosting is really rude. But scamming to get your SSN, address, email, and bank account number leads to real financial harm. And it’s only one step away from the ghosting.
@Albert: You ask a good question that is not at all obvious to ask. In fact, that’s the problem. Employers do not ask themselves how ghosting is helping or hurting them. I think the answer is simple: It’s the same reason you buy one brand or another: marketing. The job boards and Employment System infrastructure makes more money when jobs are NOT filled and employers and job seekers keep returning to keep diddling the databases of resumes and jobs. The System is very clever: it masks the highly addictive nature of its processes by hanging all kinds of shiny “technology” bangles on databases and “algorithms” that merely trigger more of the same silly behaviors. To see how bad it is, read Hilke Schellmann’s excellent expose book, “The Algorithm.” She pits real computer scientists and psychologists against the quacks at companies that sell “recruiting technology” that has no basis in reality.
My favorite part of Hilke’s book: She interviews the Chief Scientist at one such vendor, asking him to explain the technology and science behind it. When she won’t settle for his double-talk, he finally blurts out, “It’s magic!”
It’s quackery and it’s the impetus and excuse for ghosting.
Thanks so very much. Understood.
What should also be addressed is the increasingly ridiculous number of interviews that job applicants are expected to have to go through, even for positions that don’t require significant skills.
As you might recall, the worst case I know of is someone who went through 29 interviews for the same position at a company, and didn’t even get a job offer after wasting over 29 hours of his/her life.
Anything more than 2 interviews should require prospective employer to pay a reasonable amount to the applicant, i.e. cost of commuting to interview, parking and time off work etc.
Wow! One time I went through 4 interviews for a position and didn’t get the job. I found out later that the company was known locally for doing this to applicants.
I find myself wondering how an organization actually gets anything done when they waste time this way?
A lot easier if people would refuse more than 2 interviews and that includes those fake online interviews period and if you would listen on this internet site and others, so other people would know what the bad companies period
This is nothing new, 30 yrs ago, there was a food company in Madison, WI that had a permanent add for equipment maintenance in the local newspaper(before internet). I and several friends called the phone # several times over a period of several months and was told the position was just filled. Friend told the person on the phone she was an outright liar…she hung up on him. Years later, I happened to work with one of the mechanics and he said the company eventually went out of business due to terrible management resulting in food safety issues and there never was a need for another mechanic.
Guys, rather than just b******* about stuff, why not man up and call the employers on what they do? And that includes putting their names and offenses in the public eye.